Listening to: The Hallows by Why?
On Saturday evening I was reminded of something that I hear often whilst hanging out with male-gendered friends and acquaintances. Mainly, it had to do with the pros and cons of dating a girl under 25 versus over 25. Two main points: Girls under 25 are fun but don't know what they want, whereas girls over 25 usually know what they want but tend to have a lot of issues, etc.
It stands to pose a discussion. What say you on the pros and cons of dating single girls under 25 versus over 25? (And none of this "it shouldn't matter what age they are, it's the person who counts" bullshit - we're having a discussion with a point, so stick to the point and don't be that pretentious dick who tries to make everyone else feel petty because they're actually arguing an issue/thinking-point instead of just spouting off rainbow-and-unicorn-philosophies. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE) I'm not going to automatically argue - since I am, in fact, 29 - that chicks over 25 are great, they're totally not crazy, etc.: Because to be fair, women discuss this point all the time when it comes to men and whether it's better to date someone over 35 or under (which we're also going to totally discuss on here, I bet).On Saturday evening I was reminded of something that I hear often whilst hanging out with male-gendered friends and acquaintances. Mainly, it had to do with the pros and cons of dating a girl under 25 versus over 25. Two main points: Girls under 25 are fun but don't know what they want, whereas girls over 25 usually know what they want but tend to have a lot of issues, etc.
So give it. I'm going to save my thoughts on this for now and share them later in the comment section...mainly because, if I wanted you to know right off what I think, I would just tell you and we all know that I would be right and then there would be no need for any type of discussion. But, today I kind of feel like not being the be-all and end-all of intelligent discourse, so take advantage while you can.
DO IT.
43 Unicorn Trapper-Keepers:
And I swear to god, Aaron Landry, if all you say in response to this post is, "That's your opinion", I'm going to fly to New York, find you, kick you in the face, and then fly back here and wait for you to come back home so I can kick you in the face again.
I've been kind of on a violent streak lately. It's best not to mess.
OMG, WTF... i totally saw you leave that reception with a really young dude.
gentleman #1.
I would totally argue that these guys don't have a freakin clue about women over 25, but I just went to lunch with some girls from the office last week and it was pretty much a reality check/slap in the face.
I always thought that girls who obsess over being married or having kids before they were 30 only existed in bad sitcoms, but aparently i work with them. I couldn't IMAGINE being a dude and dating one of them, much less getting serious with one.
Perhaps the gentleman has had an unfortuate run-in with one of my coworkers.
Seriously...Chicks 25 and under are WAY more crazy than those of us in the "older" bracket. We have years of maturity over them or MAYBE we have had more time to perfect the art of hiding our crazy a little bit more than those young gals. Just my opinion.
Allow me to generalize and not use my brain, at least not this time. I know I am courting danger by spouting these "male" opinions, but that makes life interesting.
(Amber - please protect me with your woman powers if "they "come after me. )
1. Women are "crazy" at any age, and that makes them interesting and wonderful. Don't change that. I find women and their "crazy" fascinating. I am being sincere, by the way. You are "crazy" because you "feel".
2. You are all 'Sex and the City' without the pricey shoes and weird clothes that I just don't get.
3. Amber is right - it ain't all unicorns humping rainbows. The stereotype that women are the deep and feeling is somewhat bull - push comes to shove, you are all going home with the pretty boy - stop bashing us men for being shallow. We know we are...we are not crazy, you know.
4. Us men are as equally vapid when it comes to your gender, only we are more obvious, for obvious reasons. If I need to explain this, then you are not old enough to read this blog...go to www.myprettypony.com instead.
5. You are women. You are pretty much going to do and say whatever the hell you want to whoever you want. It's your strength and your weakness.
6. Women are not constant or consistent. That is why the nice church lady runs off with the mean drug addict biker who pees on her shoes...and why the nice church man is left standing at the altar, contemplating the advantages of "going gay".
7. You are women. Don't worry - it's a fact - let one man go, and another man will be along bugging you directly. It's what makes men act as we do - we know you can replace us in a snap.
8. The main difference between over and under 25? Physical aside, I don't think there are any differences, except that you start to feel certain societal pressures , including the peer pressure you subject yourselves to. You are still women, aren't you? So, tell society to STFU and do what you do best...be a woman.
I am going to go hide now.
I also wanted to mention a billboard I saw recently that was for some jeweler and had the image of a huge engagement ring. The headline reads "This should shut her friends up" Grrrroooosssss!!!
Carrie, did it work? :)
It would probably work for the poor dude who is planning on asking one of the aforementioned ladies I work with to marry him...
As for me, not gettin married and not spawning any Rats O' The Rug. (that's irish for babies, BLET!)
I have a friend named Shawn (32) who is convinced all women over the age of 28 have too much baggage... bad relationships, whatever.
Now he pretty much restricts himself to dating between 25-28 year olds.
I'm saying that to simply note I've heard the same thing.
I think, more than anything, it's a function of the kind of woman he's attracted to, and where he meets them.
People fall back on it because it's a convenient excuse.
90% of keeping a working relationship is deciding just how much fucked up in another person you can stand; and for how long.
'Cause let's face it. We all got issues.
well, when I was twenty-six I started dating a thirty year old. It turns out that she was the right thirty year old too because we're married now (and I'm in my late thirties). So, I'd have to go with the over twenty-five set - she was way more stable than other people I was hanging out with. Being purely hypothetical at this point, I think it would take a pretty exceptional under twenty-fiver for me to want to hang out with for any length of time - dating or not.
I also think that thirty is, and has been, a pretty incredible age for a lot of women I know. They really seem to come into their own as people - so maybe that's what Gentleman #2 meant by "crazy."
On a side note, my wife and I have both been through times where we've been crazy, but mostly we're calm. Go figure.
Age. So what. I mean really, to put arbitrary limits like that is kinda silly.
besides.. it was brandy or tlc who said "age aint nothing but a number"
HEY, Gentleman #1, we're not talking about ME right now. And besides...that only proves that I don't have any age issues.
And okay - before we go any further into our discussion, I should mention that I would like to keep this general. Gentleman #2 is, in fact, a gentleman. He merely repeated an opinion I've heard numerous times, so let's keep it non-personal when we're discussing the example, mmm-kay? I should have clarified that before, so I apologize.
Carried: No, that's what I always think, too, when I hear a male talk about fear of older girls when it comes to dating. And like you said...those girls are out there, and they kind of give all of us a bad rap...ESPECIALLY the ones who want to get married so badly, they've stopped even caring who they get married to. And I'm so not that girl - and I suspect you aren't either - so perhaps that's why this opinion (that older girls are crazy) tends to boggle us.
The Bitch: Ha - my friend Luke used to refer to it as "bottling up the crazy". And I think that may be true...some of us may still be crazy, but we've just gotten better at bottling it up.
And another thing - how old, usually, are the girls you see walking down the street at bar close, crying, screaming or throwing tantrums while they walk down the street? Hint: No one who's old enough to hang out with me.
I don't know for sure that 25 is the definitive cut-off point, but I don't think most women in their early 20s really know what they want or what is realistic to expect in a relationship. As one friend of mine says about dating in her early 20s, that was when she "still thought guys pooped rainbows."
Allure of Train Tracks, I don't think you really said anything you need to go and hide over, or that I would need to lend my protection to you over. You kept it kind. And you also gain bonus points for referencing the My Pretty Pony website.
OMG, Carrie, I've totally seen that billboard, too. The only thing that makes me more mad than that advertising angle is the fact that they know who their audience is, and it's a big one. And yes, it is probably the boyfriends of the girls you work with. Gross. I don't even want to get started on the whole diamond ring and wedding business stuff. It tends to rile me up a bit.
Dan: See the thing is, I think EVERYONE has baggage and issues. You could argue that older single people have more baggage than someone who's younger, but you could also argue that older singles have had more time to work through their baggage and issues and so have less than someone younger, etc. The other point that I would offer is that, at this point in my life, I know I have issues but I also know what those issues are. Therefore, it's easier being forthright and/or knowing what to do so those issues don't fuck a good thing up.
Anonymous: See, and I think younger guys who go out with older chicks is so incredibly attractive. Even before I was considered one in the group of "older girls", I would hear about my brothers' friends going out with older girls and thinking that there had to be something really amazing and mature about them to be able to snag an older girlfriend.
And stable is a good word for the over-25 set. Which is funny, because before I was 25, the last thing I wanted was a guy who was "stable" (I was attracted to the vagabond renegade type). I can't say it's the number one thing I'm attracted to now, but it's a nice quality for someone to have.
Hey Kevin: Remember what I said in my post about discussing the point and not being the guy who's all "it's what's inside that counts"?! I WAS TALKING TO YOU.
Anonymous: Actually, that's kind of why I didn't state my personal opinion in the post...cause really, I don't feel like I match my age. I feel like, in terms of life experience and rare maturity level, yeah, I'm 29. But I don't think I tend to really act or appear to be what I think others expect 29 to look like. Which is fine. I've always kind of been a late bloomer.
I hate this mentality with a passion (and not just because my ex dumped me for a 25-year-old stoner). But I can't get all high and mighty about it, because I'm kind of convinced all men in their early to mid 30's are commitment-phobic douchebags yearning for their college days and double-talking their way through dates all in the hopes of sliding into your bed...not that I'm bitter or anything.
P.S. As to Carrie's point, I'm pretty sure I've scared off at least one guy because of my stand on never getting married. Sometimes you can't win for losing.
Hey now, I said we all got issues.
It's my friend who's the douchebag. And consequently, I tell him that's why he's still single.
Like I said, it's a convenient excuse.
Allie, that describes most every age of guy (except the ones in college - They don't yearn for their college days yet).
I've been in a long term relationship for a long time, so I'm viewing this whole thing from the outside. I started dating an under 25 girl, and now she's a 26 year old woman. I'm going on both what I see on the street and what my friends have gone through.
In general, girls under 25 are immature and not interested in regular guys (like you said, Amber). Women over 25 start to look for stability and the long term. So if you're looking for a fling, young is the way to go (if you can handle going to crowded clubs and listening to shitty music for the sake of appearing cool every weekend).
On the other hand, dating over 25 women means someone with a career and money with interesting ideas and goals. Someone who has her own place and can have you over to cook dinner and have crazy sex without worrying about a roommate (or mom and dad) walking in.
So there are pros and cons.
I was a crazy drunkard who would prod boyfriends with demands to prove their feelings to me until the dumped me before I was 25. After 25, I've had one steady boyfriend with whom I have rational discussions about why I am occasionally irrational. So, that's my personal experience.
I wasn't saying "it's what's inside that counts". Just that I don't care about age. I'll date an older gal - and 30 is not old, btw. Shit, I'm 27. When I was 24 I went on a few dates with a girl who was 35. Wasn't an issue. She was hot as fuck and smart, too. I just think age is an awfully stupid thing to judge a potential partner on. Far better assessing a person's maturity or wiseness (is that even a word - wiseness?) which is far more indicitave of "age" than any number.
Okay, so I wrote this whole response comment back to Gilby, Aliecat, and Dan, and then Blogger shut down for about an hour and it was erased.
SO -
Gilby: Great point. I think that I've always had a pretty good idea of what I wanted in a relationship, but it wasn't until I was in my later 20's that I learned how to discern what of that was truly important and what was just fodder.
Aw, Aliecat. I don't really blame you for feeling bitter. And I really don't know what to think anymore about the guy-age thing. I, personally, have experienced the 30-year mark transformation in a lot of my male friends. For years all they want is play, then it's like they hit 30 and all of a sudden they're buying Bridal magazines and asking me for tips on nice things to do for their girlfriend when she's having a bad day. So, I think for guys it's more of a decision-making thing than a growing process.
No, Dan, I was agreeing with you. But out of curiosity...are there really enough girls within the 25-28 age range for your friend to really justify having that small of a playing field?
Nice work, Discoordianstooge. I like the way you explained it.
Amberalso: Yeah, I think I definitely had my moments of driving a boyfriend or two crazy with my over-analyzing. I sometimes still totally do it, but know enough now to keep most of that stuff to myself. Or, bore Katy with it...
Kevin, I agree with you. It's just that...well, I get so used to yelling at you that it's just become natural instinct whenever I see your name.
It’s too bad young people think this way. At thirty five, I feel saner than I ever have. I am in tune with my instincts, my sexuality, and I have a better understanding about what I desire for my future. Because of this, I am more direct and honest in my relationships. At thirty five, I understand that my opportunities to bear a child are dwindling. I’ve accepted this. I’ve opened my heart to adoption, fostering, being a big sister, or a step mom, or none of the above. I’m just happy with what the world gives me.
Oh yeah, I’m also financially independent. Take that bitches!
Nice topic, Amber, really got the debate going.
Oh and I'm also super open minded cause I already feel like I've seen it all. And physically speaking, still in my twenties. (yeah, that's me bragging)
Okay boys and girls...
#1 27 is the magic number for age. Women today are far different than women 30 years ago, they go to college, party, get a job, go out after work, soon those nights get earlier, because they have a job. They want more weekend time and doing things they enjoy. Finding new things they enjoy, and figuring out who they are. If you marry too early, its not going to last. (This is hard earned experience. not a guess).
#2 Kids. Don't have them until you have own identity, because they will steal what you have.
#3 Men, yes, were assholes, its the way the universe is set up. Pretty much all were after is, well, you know, some hot young women. That never changes, it would be best if you never physically aged past 22, but again, that's not how the universe is set up. Your best defense against us men being assholes is to be comfortable with your self, happy in who you are and comfortable. Were not going to make you happy, we're wired differently. Very Differently.
So my advice, date different people, and wait to commit to someone and don't rush. Everyone changes, and we keep changing. Life is not one big party, and when the chips are down, all we really have is our families.
Kevin, I agree with you. It's just that...well, I get so used to yelling at you that it's just become natural instinct whenever I see your name.
What you mean is it's natural instinct for you to scream my name.
Oooooor not, Kevin. (You are very witty and clever with the comebacks, though, I gotta say...)
Sproactually, you can't blame men being assholes on the UNIVERSE. People are assholes because they're assholes. I also just totally went on a tangent about this, but decided to save that for any upcoming post. And to be clear, I'm not attacking you, you saying that just reminded me of something I read yesterday that I was meaning to write about anyway. So...good work!
And on #1 and #2, I think you're pretty much right on the money.
Abysmal Chick: Right ON. I agree - I am so much more direct and honest in my relationships now, it's kind of overwhelming to think about it how much differently I acted when I was in my early twenties. Not sure if that's experience, maturity, age, or a combination of all three. Another thing? Totally over the whole "I'm hurt and angry so I'm going to sulk and if YOU DON'T ALREADY KNOW WHY I'M HURT AND MAD THEN I'M NOT GOING TO TELL YOU!" thing. Which I totally used to do (even though I wouldn't admit it) back when I was younger. Now, if I'm hurt and angry...you're going to hear allllllllll about it.
In the most honest, direct, and mature way, of course.
Oh, and thanks, Absymal Chick! This is a good debate, huh? I always know I can count on you guys for some stimulating discussion.
I said stimulating.
Yeah, his pool is limited.
And he has this great story about finally meeting someone he liked only to have her join the peace corps and fly off to Africa after she started seeing him.
But you know how it is with friends sometimes...
"Yep, yep, I understand and support you bro. (Cough)."
"Let me buy you a lap dance and you'll feel all better."
Ha ha...that shit happens to me all the time. I always tell people that as soon as they plan to go live somewhere like Korea for a year, they'll most likely meet their soulmate right before they leave. I've been right 4 out of 5 times.
See I do have to go with the "unicorns and rainbows" comment that it really doesn't matter the age.
I'm 24 and I know EXACTLY what I want. finding it is another matter.
Back to the blog at hand, I do think that broad generalizations can be made.
First of all, most women are crazy in some way. period.
Women under 25 are crazy in a 'discovering themselves' kind of way.
Women over 25 are crazy in a 'now that I know who I am and what I want, I'm on the hunt for the "right" guy to make all my previously conceived dreams come true!". That, combined with the social pressures of having children, getting married, etc, can really make a bitch cuckoo.
Then there's the jaded over 25 crowd. The 'I've seen it all and all men are jerks so it doesn't matter how great you are, I won't trust you anyway.'
I see what they were getting at, that all the good ones are gone by that age. I've felt the same way about guys. I suspect that if there is a guy who's over 30 and supposedly wants a relationship, there is something wrong with him to cause him to not have one. Otherwise some girl would have scooped him up by now.
Oooh, Molotov, I like the way you brought up the Jaded Over 25 Crowd...nice.
I see what you're saying about how you think the same thing about guys over thirty, but I tend to really hate that mentality (and I catch myself doing it sometimes, too, so this is not a slam against you)...that if someone was good enough, someone else would have scooped them up by now. What if they've been in the Peace Corps for the past ten years? What if they were concentrating on other stuff like their career? Not everyone always put relationships as a first priority, esp. during their 20's, when it's crucial to figure out your career, life path, etc.
It just kind of gets me. I've been proposed to twice. So, essentially, I could have been "scooped up" by now, but I'm not. Not because I have issues, but because I wanted to wait until I found the right person. Not everyone finds the right person when they're 23...and so that's why I think that thinking-process is so short-sighted. Sometimes the good ones have made a choice to not be "gone" yet.
"I said stimulating."
That is so hot.
that if someone was good enough, someone else would have scooped them up by now. What if they've been in the Peace Corps for the past ten years?
What if they've been destroyed by all those "crazy" women out there and have given up... waiting for the right woman to notice the beautiful jewel they truly are?
(Gawd, I love Lifetime movies...)
Uh, who doesn't.
Being preoccupied with life and taking yourself out of the game due to bitterness are two different things, Dan. Remember? Remember my Man Ban's, Dan? Remember?
An Amber man ban. lmao. That's like saying the Vikings have a Super Bowl ban.
You're an asshole, Kevin.
Oh there really is no black and white way to look at this. Period.
I also most definitely agree that relationships are rather low on the priority list for a lot of people when they're younger. Careers and life paths and all manner of other goals generally come first.
We all hit an age where we suddenly start thinking "do I want someone else to be a part of this life path I've chosen." and there's no way to pinpoint when that will happen.
It might actually be nice if we could lump it in to an "over 25" and "under 25" type of categorization. It'd make it easier sometimes.
I think it's really the cynical side of me that thinks that older single guys must in some way be tainted or flawed.
The cynicism is the direct opposite to my overly romantic side that thinks that just maybe they haven't found the right girl. At which point I can launch in to all kinds of delusions about how I will be his dream girl who he's been waiting for all his life and blah blah blah. (here's where I start swooning and get those big creepy watery cartoon eyes and a dopey grin on my face)
Anywho, it's an interesting thing to think about, and seeing other people's views can be both interesting and wholly frustrating.
I think you and I have kind of the same dilemma. We get lumped in to categories we don't really belong in.
Dan,
I know just what you mean. However chances are they've dated a few, and most of them show the emotional scars of it and then create the "jaded male" group who refuse to be in a relationship AT ALL due to some crazy broad who messed him up.
I happen to be "dating" one of these fellows currently. A perfectly amazing guy who has so much potential but has so much emotional baggage from evil exes that, though he's trying, has issues.
But dammit! I see the beautiful jewel that he is!!!!
I'm gonna polish that bitch til it SHINES LIKE THE SUN!!!!
...tonight on lifetime...
Not gonna deny it.
Ya know...this has been an very interesting thread, and we must genuflect to her Amberness for having broached it, and for braving the assholeness of Kevin to do so. Kevin, before you get all mad and go gangta, I too am asshole but I camouflage it with Estee Laudee.
All hail Amber.
OK, enough ass-kissing.
My situation is probably slightly atypical. Having been born with a micro-penis, I can probably relate to women better than most men, I think. Easy, ladies, I am off the market as I met and married my good woman years ago.
The thing about my relationship is that I am the "crazy" one in it. She has had to put up with all my crazy off the wall crap. Frankly, she could do better, but I guess she likes me or something as she has stuck around all these years. Luckily, she doesn't know that she can do better. Boys, that is the way to keep your dream woman...don't ever let her know she can do better.
No relationship is easy, duh. It doesn't matter if you are 14 and in the flush of your first post-coital bliss, or if you are 70 and trying to get love amongst the wrinkles....there is always going to be something to challenge the health and endurance of your relationship. The worst challenge to any relationship? It's not other people, or James Dobson, or excessive lust...look in the mirror...it's you. (Gosher, so deep!!).
For some, it's "ohh, pretty over there" thinking to "who is the asshole I am stuck with?" moments. As far as delaying love and relationship in favor of a career, goals, or hobbies, I never understood that thinking. That is just stuff to keep you occupied when love is absent from your life, or pay your bills on your march to the grave.
That is something that no one has addressed in this thread...we are all going to die. Doesn't matter how many people we schtump, dump, hump, or stump, or whether we are successful or failures, whether we are fat or thin, ugly or pretty, you, me, Kevin, and even that lady with the thing on her mouth that she says is a canker sore...we are going to die.
When it comes to making a hard decision, I put the funeral question to myself. Who would show up at my funeral, cry like a prison-bitch in the most sincere way, and miss me like a serious mo-fro? I don't mean stalkers like the twisted dynamic that Kevin and Amber have, but people whom you care about, and may love, despite the fact that you are all "scared of being vulnerable and getting your heart broken and ending up with a rash and should it scab over like this?" You'll notice that your career, your winning homerun, your comic book collection, etc....they won't be there.
Whoever ends up on that list...those are the people I know love me, care about me, and whom I would consider my serious relationship.
So, ask yourselves...who's on your crying prison-bitch funeral list? Then quit futzing around, grow some gonads, and go for it. Love, when all is said and done, is one of the most painful, stupidest, and greatest emotions that we have.
Molotov:
"I think you and I have kind of the same dilemma. We get lumped in to categories we don't really belong in."
Agreed.
"The cynicism is the direct opposite to my overly romantic side that thinks that just maybe they haven't found the right girl. At which point I can launch in to all kinds of delusions about how I will be his dream girl who he's been waiting for all his life and blah blah blah. (here's where I start swooning and get those big creepy watery cartoon eyes and a dopey grin on my face)"
I totally know what you're talking about here. As in, completely and utterly.
"I see the beautiful jewel that he is!!!!
I'm gonna polish that bitch til it SHINES LIKE THE SUN!!!!"
HA! I died reading that line.
Allure of Train Tracks:
Your comments about your wife were sweet. I esp. loved micro-penis bit, followed immediately by "easy ladies, I am off the market". And it's true, we're all going to die. So I guess the decision every man has to make is this one: Do you want to die with the knowledge that you had crazy, fun, slightly anonymous sex with tons of college girls, or that you had meaningful, serious, deeply fulfilling relationships with a mature, actualized woman?
And I mean, I'd have different answers on different days, so no judgment...
We can have sex with college girls? Nowwwwwwwwww you tell me.
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